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Conversations from the coalface of the family law system in Australia. For more see www.mediationanswers.com.au
Episodes
Thursday Oct 19, 2023
Thursday Oct 19, 2023
“a different approach” – Phil Stahl on the value of interdisciplinary discussions at the Pacifica Congress conference
Phil Stahl (https://parentingafterdivorce.com/)
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
If you would like to attend the champagne celebration on 1 November 2023 for the Inside Family Law and network with our remarkable guests that we have hosted over the years secure your spot at: https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/736405357247?aff=oddtdtcreator
- Discussion on Dr Phil Stahl’s take aways from the Pacifica Congress Conference in Hobart 2023.
- Why Dr Phil Stahl is a part of the Pacifica Congress Conference.
- Supercharged testimony talk at the conference.
- Differences in the approach in the USA.
- Tips to improve the quality of reports and assessments.
- Discussion of coercive control at Pacifica Congress 2023
- History of Pacifica Congress and predecessor AFCC.
- Learning from others who are not in psychology ie lawyers and Judges.
- Bringing together leaders in the field.
- Importance of lunchtime chats and informal discussions.
- Interdisciplinary work in family law and psychology in shades of grey, “but the law tends to be black and white.”
- “we can all learn from each other. We all work with children.”
- Connections made through Pacifica are important, they become like family.
- When we step back… we can then take a different approach to things.”
Thursday Oct 19, 2023
Thursday Oct 19, 2023
“our client is the child” – Olia Pelayo from Children in Focus on the supervision process and keeping children in the centre of it at the Pacifica Congress Conference series.
Olia Pelayo (https://www.childreninfocus.com.au)
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
If you would like to attend the champagne celebration on 1 November 2023 for the Inside Family Law and network with our remarkable guests that we have hosted over the years secure your spot at: https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/736405357247?aff=oddtdtcreator
- Process, applications, forms etc and timeline (usually about 1 week from applying to be able to supervise).
- Locations that Children in Focus can attend
- How the role is explained to children. “Meet and greet” with children.
- Concerns of clients about supervision and Olia’s responses.
- Children in Focus work with the family as to what the children have been told about their role. Sometimes the children are fearful to see their parent and the children are fine to refer to them as the supervisor. In the meet and greet they explain the process, what will happen and if any safety words etc needed.
- “keeping the children safe basically” is the role of the supervisor.
- When the supervisor will intervene. I.e. immediate if child is hit etc. If there is a negative comment made, then supervisor may intervene and ask the parent to stop this behaviour. If behaviour continues then they may have to terminate visit.
- What is included in reports. Objective observation, things said to children, interactions, communication.
- Pure observation. No recommendations, opinions etc.
- Pathway families move through when using supervision. Supervision can be longer term. Sometimes it can be very brief for some reassurance and to build trust.
- Reports can mirror back to parents what their actions are.
- How reports can provide feedback and be a mirror for parents.
- Locations and also the cost of supervision.
- Qualifications of supervisors and training they receive.
- Issue when parents are paying for supervision and they then perceive themselves as the client who is paying for the service.
- Zoe: “In a way it is parents paying for the service… the payer has the power… so how does that work in protecting and empowering children when they are not the payer?”
- “Sometimes clients say “Well I paid for you, you better put this in the report the way I want it”… and “We say excuse me no, our client is the child. And we are here to make sure we do everything in the best interests of the child….We don’t take stuff like that from clients.”
- Important things to remember to include in Orders when supervisors are appointed. Ie be careful about being too specific on times before you have the supervisor appointed, ie what if the supervisor cannot attend at this time. Leave flexibility for the times the supervisor can attend. “At a time chosen by the supervisor” or a wording that allows the supervisor to nominate the time.
Thursday Oct 19, 2023
Thursday Oct 19, 2023
“wanting something better” – Dr Robert Simon on family violence at the Pacifica Congress Conference series.
Dr Robert Simon (https://www.dr-simon.com/)
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
If you would like to attend the champagne celebration on 1 November 2023 for the Inside Family Law and network with our remarkable guests that we have hosted over the years secure your spot at: https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/736405357247?aff=oddtdtcreator
- Film The Fort.
- Coercive controlling violence, intergenerational transmission of this.
- Mother finds her voice and stands up to the father, father kills the mother in the film.
- Perpetrator renders the victim helpless in a number of ways.
- Can included financial, physical and other forms of control.
- Gender symmetry in other forms of violence in families, but not in coercive controlling violence which is mainly male to female.
- Zoe asks: why is it that coercive controlling violence is so gendered?
- Lack of empathy of perpetrators.
- How do you stop this form of violence? On an individual level perpetrator may seek psychotherapy and also want to change.
- Victims can exit the relationship. Noting this is an extremely difficult and vulnerable time for victims as this is when they are in the most danger.
- “perpetrators don’t find court orders to be anything other than suggestions… and they’ll violate them” (even though they are not just suggestions, this is their perception).
- Shelters and supporting escape from the relationship. Location often not disclosed.
- On a societal level we have to make the knowledge of it common… we need to change it from being an ugly secrete that’s swept under the rug to something that everybody knows takes place and is willing to talk about. We need to educate all of us about the signs and signals that somebody is in trouble… and teach people how to do a little bit of outreach…”
- Case by case approach/. One person at a time.
- “At that moment of leaving that victim is at greatest risk.”
- 1 woman a week dies in Australia at the hands of a partner/ ex partner.
- “Battery programs” in the USA. Research suggests these are not that effective.
- Change doesn’t occur “unless a person is sincerely motivated… and sincere motivation is not escaping punishment, sincere motivation is wanting something better.”
- Victims still feel a lot of shame about family violence. We need to take the humiliation sting out of it.
Wednesday Oct 18, 2023
Wednesday Oct 18, 2023
“layers of truth” – Dr Phil Watts on information to children (truth) & how we take information from them in the Court process (children’s voice), Pacifica Congress Conference series
Dr Phil Watts (https://www.mindstatepsychology.com.au/)
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
If you would like to attend the champagne celebration on 1 November 2023 for the Inside Family Law and network with our remarkable guests that we have hosted over the years secure your spot at: https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/736405357247?aff=oddtdtcreator
- The voice of children
- “Children need to be heard, but we need to very careful involving them in a legal process. If they say too much or get too involved then it’s stressful, if they don’t get heard then they feel powerless and anxious and that’s not helpful either.”
- Sometimes children want to please both parents and may say different things to each parent to please them.
- Different things can happen:
- They speak their mind – this can be hard to do
- They duck for cover – try to stay out of dispute and say nothing wrong.
- They pick sides – different ways they can do this. Can be aligning with most powerful side.
- They don’t trust anyone.
- “layers of truth… its got to be at an appropriate level for their age of development.”
- Listen to what they are actually asking.
- Judges interviewing children. We need to look at the skill set of the person speaking with the children.
- Distinction between children’s likes vs children’s wishes. Important children understand that their “wishes” are not necessarily going to be “granted” as such or this breaks more trust.
- Dr Watts discusses what he says to children when he meets them. That he wants to find out what they like and what they don’t like to help the adults make the decisions best for them.
- “We should be talking about likes not wishes.”
- Within the existing system there are things Judges can do. Example about Judge drafting a statement of truth for the children as assisted by Dr Watts.
- “There are things we can do now.”
- “Children are not little adults, they have their own unique view of the world and we need to understand them.”
- “the better the court knows what the child is like” the more we can work out what is best for them.
- Looking at the world as a unique individual.
- What is the fundamental thing this child needs to get the best dose… of mum and dad.”
- What lawyers can do: move past parents desire to “win their rights, win their fight” and do what they can to keep focused on the child. For example a photo of the child at mediation in the centre of the table.
Wednesday Oct 18, 2023
Wednesday Oct 18, 2023
“own what you say” – Family Reports that are proscriptive with Dr Kaylene Evers, Pacifica Congress series
Dr Kaylene Evers (https://www.kayleneevers.com/)
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
If you would like to attend the champagne celebration on 1 November 2023 for the Inside Family Law and network with our remarkable guests that we have hosted over the years secure your spot at: https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/736405357247?aff=oddtdtcreator
- “You need to own what you say… not sit on the fence. Be proscriptive, not descriptive.”
- “observation starts from the first phone call, it doesn’t just occur when someone turns up at your office.”
- “A Judge is looking to our professional experience to assist them.”
- Although it is not the key purpose of a report “a good report can be therapeutic because it might be that if its understood by the participants … they have an epiphany. The penny drops and they might change the way they interact. That’s glorious when that happens.”
- Explaining how we move from observation to recommendations.
- Dynamic movement from hypothesis and testing hypothesis, can include psychometric testing.
- Every child is different and every family is different. You can draw from benchmarks but then need to look at the individual family and child.
- Planning and also flexibility. You have to be flexible and are “constantly reformulating your hypothesis below the surface.”
- It is only a snap shot in time. “How can you extend the snapshot?”
- Zoe asks: How can report writers assess a family in such a narrow time frame/ ie one meeting? (Note Kaylene gives a very thorough answer so listen in!)
- Read all the documents (extends back the time frame)
- Meeting in person is only part of the jigsaw puzzle.
- Clarity and certainty VS flexibility in reports.
- If other new information comes to light (ie on cross examination) that may change your view. “It’s a dynamic process.”
- What are the changes we have seen in reports over the years?
- Kaylene: in the last 5-8 years there are more “fence sitting” reports that do not have clear recommendations.
- Vague reports add to the adversarial process.
- Harder to settle a matter at mediation if report is unclear (Zoe).
- Report writers need to be clear and explain how they got to that recommendation ie join the dots and why they think what they think.
- Perhaps some report writers are concerned about being cross examined. However if they have worked through the reasons for why they think what they think, report writers should not fear cross. It can be an opportunity to explain their reasons and if new information comes to light, help refine what is in the best interests for children.
- This is also why we are here at Pacifica Congress – to learn from each other, have dialogue and focus on what is in the best interests of children.
- Interdisciplinary perspectives.
Saturday Oct 14, 2023
Saturday Oct 14, 2023
“This was a time in our lives, let’s honour it” – Interdisciplinary collaborative practice with Susan Warda and Bernie Bolger
Susan Warda, Mills Oakley (https://www.millsoakley.com.au/)
Bernie Bolger, The mediation Collective (https://mediationcollective.com.au/)
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
If you would like to attend the champagne celebration on 1 November 2023 for the Inside Family Law and network with our remarkable guests that we have hosted over the years secure your spot at: https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/736405357247?aff=oddtdtcreator
- ICP – Interdisciplinary collaborative practice
- Form of ADR (alternative dispute resolution)
- Contract from the outset that lawyers cease to act if matter litigates
- What is the role of the neutrals? (I.e child psychologist or financial expert)
- Neutrals can help level the power between the parties (if power imbalance or imbalance in knowledge)
- Hearing the same information from someone new (ie expert) can be easier to digest.
- “Not just about legal entitlements, we are looking at it wholistically” (Bernie)
- “Preserving relationships and resources” (Zoe)
- Neutrals can also assist with education
- “it’s a process that allows you to move on with decency and dignity” (Susan)
- Transparency across the process.
- Sometimes parties have not lived in the same reality / perception of the relationship. Collaborative practice really allows both lawyers to hear both parties perceptions.
- Part of the contract to act respectfully.
- “A lot of times mediation is a pre step to Court.” (Bernie)
- “There are no position papers in a collaborative process.” (Bernie)
- How to access the collaborative process.
- “There are very few matters that don’t resolve.” (Susan)
- Resolution is in the late 90’s in terms of percentage.
- “It actually is a joyful way to work.” (Bernie)
- “Isn’t it better off having both lawyers using their energies to work for the family as a whole rather than pitting their energies against each other in order to win. In order for one person to win the other person has to lose. But in collaborative matters it’s such a team effort.” (Bernie)
- “Isn’t it a legacy that we can leave the family in a place where they can be a separated family that respect each other.” (Bernie)
- History of Stu Webb and collaborative process. If you remove the threat of Court out this gives space and time and safety to resolve matters.
- 3pm at mediations: “I’ll see you in Court.” Removing this. Setting the process up for failure.
- “Disclosure obligations are exactly the same as any other traditional form of dispute resolution.” (Susan)
- “Why can’t we honour the relationship that was while moving to the next phase of our lives. This was a time in our lives, let’s honour it.” (Bernie).
Friday Oct 13, 2023
Friday Oct 13, 2023
Jessica Strangio and Stephanie Azzi from Rafton Family Lawyers https://rafton.com.au/
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
If you would like to attend the champagne celebration on 1 November 2023 for the Inside Family Law and network with our remarkable guests that we have hosted over the years secure your spot at: https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/736405357247?aff=oddtdtcreator
- “Focusing on outcomes… parties just want to resolve their matters… it is not always about I’m right and you’re wrong.” Jessica Strangio
- “Pacifica Congress was all about supporting families through the dispute resolution process and sharing the knowledge with other practitioners being lawyers and social scientist practitioners… and help families by sharing that knowledge.” Stephanie Azzi
- “how can we best support an expert during cross examination so they can give us the best evidence and information the court needs?” Stephanie Azzi
- Value of interdisciplinary discussion (across disciplines)
- Safe spaces for informal discussion: the role of coffee in law as a pressure valve and informal conversations
- Key highlights of the conference – single experts
- Value of hearing practices in other states (across states/ geography)
- Input and amount of time to prepare a Family Report
- Understanding at the Conference how does an expert get from A to B to Z. Why is it they think what they think?
- No regulating body for family court reporting experts. Also, when they study there is no family law subjects.
- Shortage of experts. Would having a set criteria or regulating body would that allow more new experts into the area?
- In Tasmania Judges tend to meet with children. Different approaches across the states.
- Proactive approaches we can take at a grass roots level (i.e. not all changes being at the level of legislation, but at the level of what we can seek day to day i.e thinking more creatively about Orders to seek from the Court if suitable).
- Collegiality and connecting with colleagues. How the lawyers having a rapport can actually assist clients -being able to cut through issues more efficiently. This can also save money for the client.
- “things can happen at the level of a gesture” (Zoe) – sometimes it is about being able to pick up the phone and be able to call the other practitioner and resolve it on a practical level.
- Coffee cart (sponsored by Raftons) is a core metaphor for dialogue, informal discussion and rapport between colleagues.
Wednesday Oct 11, 2023
Wednesday Oct 11, 2023
Dr Simon Kennedy – “A more nuanced approach”, structured professional judgment in Family Reports
Dr Simon Kennedy https://www.psychologycamberwell.com/dr-simon-kennedy
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
- From assessment to inference. The difficult part of reports is making recommendations.
- Making recommendations is a quantum leap.
- 22 major factors from literature and clinical practice that are central to making recommendations
- Assessing in structured professional judgment what the factors are.
- Factors may include age, attachment relationship, family dysfunction, disability of a child, practical factors (such as travel distance), communication between the parents etc.
- Weight the factors.
- Each family is slightly different.
- Movement away from formulaic recommendations. I.e. “under age 4, x nights per fortnight etc”.
- Need to assess the family and children’s needs.
- Structured professional judgment to guide assessment and decision making.
- Nuanced approach that addresses a matrix of factors
- Benefits of children spending time with both parents
- One of the major controversies is age. We also need to take into account all the factors.
- Changes in family law over time: role of fathers has evolved.
- Covid has led to flexible work arrangements and changes in parenting arrangements.
- Benefit to children of both parents sharing their care.
- Current problems: children on devices
- Review of family reports
- Shortage of therapeutic treatment
- Protection for practitioners in family law (lack of enough family report writers).
Wednesday Sep 20, 2023
Wednesday Sep 20, 2023
- Film, the Fort. Using the arts as messaging. Education, prevention and disruption.
- Voice of Change.
- Film shows coercive control and different types of violence.
- What can I do to facilitate change?
- What is an active bystander?
- “How can I help? What can I do?”
- Calling out behaviours.
- Shame associated with family violence.
- Ripple effect once we call out behaviour.
- What is family violence?
- Family violence in covid including in cases where English is a second language
- Lack of empathy.
- Comments in the workplace.
- Muscle memory. Tools to call out the behaviour.
- Contact Voice of Change for access to the film “The Fort”.
- Workplaces, changes in sports, education, corporate
- Victim shaming.
- Private vs public sphere. If is all connected, different spheres of influence.
- Hearing a message multiple times over time.
- Statistics on deaths due to family violence.
- Film “India’s daughter” – “if someone finds a diamond on the road of course they are going to pick it up”.
- Think equal curriculum – teaching children empathy (3-4 year olds).
- The education we have on how to pick a partner “you have Disney, fairytales and porn” to guide you from childhood as to how to pick a healthy relationship.
- Respectful relationships, Consent education in school.
- Porn – strangulation in porn. Children have access to porn via devices. “No one wants to talk about porn and no one wants to talk about sexual relationships.” (That’s why we are keeping it in the podcast!). Sex and violence.
- Consent and influence of porn – difficulty as teenagers feeling they have to give the consent to strangulation.
- Having hard conversations.
- Bystander VS active bystander.
- Possible changes to the law re family violence.
- National definition of family violence.
- Consequences for patterns of behaviour.
- We live in a strange age of “Stone age emotions, medieval beliefs, god like technology many people can reach”.
- It’s the simple things.
- There are things we can do. We need the words.
Shaynna Blaze (www.shaynnablaze.com)
Sally Nicholes (www.nicholeslaw.com.au)
Voice of change www.voiceofchangeau.org
You can access the film “The Fort” via Voice of change
At the Pacifica Congress Conference live in Hobart 2023 www.pacificacongress.org
The Inside Family Law Podcast is hosted by Zoe Durand at Mediation Answers www.mediationanswers.com.au in partnership with Lawyer Magic and ArtWork.
Monday Jun 01, 2020
Monday Jun 01, 2020
“in control to steer outcomes”, An interview with Elise McSweeny from SplitWorld
- What is SplitWorld?
- What is the purpose of SplitWorld?
- Discussion of modules. Property and assets module, parenting module, and documenting agreement.
- How the algorithm for the financial calculator (property) was developed.
- Idea that “The process depletes the resources” of the family and SplitWorld’s intention to be a self empowered process.
- Intention to assist parties to collaborate.
- DIY Divorce tool kit to save time, emotion and money.
- Not all matters are appropriate for this process.
- Different ways to use SplitWorld.
- Parenting plan module and education resources about how to best support children through separation via blog and direct mail.
- Future trends for SplitWorld ”there is a drive to disrupt the system”.
- Human element in determining justice and equity and how this works with an algorithm (financial calculator).
- “At a higher level, where does justice and equity exist? In this process the justice and equity exists inside the perspective of the two people navigating the divorce… The sense and the feeling of justice and equity comes from me if I am going through the process and I arrive at the end of it and I feel justice has been met."
- “The justice and equity exists within them.”
- “We want to stand in the possibility that separation can be amicable and that each partner can choose this and that if people choose this…then they are immediately in control to steer outcomes in alignment with this choice.”
- The parties can collaborate together. They can modify what the financial calculator says, i.e do not have to agree with the financial calculator outcome, but use it as a guide only.
- In collating the information for the financial calculator parties think in a practical way about how their future lives will work. The process of collating the data for the financial calculator can in and of itself be useful.
- Retaining resources – time, energy, money inside the family unit as “invaluable.”
- Future of SplitWorld.